About THAT story. I went to Kelly with all my questions. And got 4 key takeaways.
p.s. Let's assume the best of each other here. And be kind.
My friend
of Midimalist dropped a deeply thought provoking newsletter here the other day, calling it Infl(uenc)ation.Taking a long breath now. Join me! In through the nose, out through the mouth. I had to read it slowly and repeatedly. As I understand it (and it’s chock full of interesting points), the gist is this: There’s been a notable and dramatic upward shift in the prices of things some influencers are suggesting with affiliate links. And followers, influenced, are coming along for the ride, adjusting their personal sense of what’s too much to spend. And there’s sometimes an accompanying lack of transparency around it all, where an influencer may in part be able to afford astronomical prices due to things like gifting. Kelly talked about a concern for people who end up spending beyond their means. And also that it can make some people feel like shit. (If you need to skip to the TL;DR now, feel free; it’s the last para here*)
I had a lot of reactions. But I noticed other people had even more. Holy moly, the phone lines LIT UP. (And let me say, as an aside, some of the offhand comments were kinda … douchey or at the douchey line. Here we are, a particular community of mostly women and LBGTQIA individuals, and the world is douchey enough to us. Why oh why most we come for one another with a tone? I am NOT a baby and yet I am so not here for this. I am so over it.)
And okay, so one reaction I had was fear, if I’m being honest, which I like to be, even though it ironically scares me. Kelly had talked about (ahem) older women with money (eeek). This is the part that I personally alighted on within the whole thing: “It’s important to recognize here that as people age, their spending power naturally increases. In fact, if you are below the age of 30, I urge you to watch this video from one of my favorite TikTokers, Pretty Critical, about how following influencers who are older than you can cause you to overspend as you try to keep up with their lifestyle that they have had more years to build.”
And now this is how I initially read the above: “You entitled old rich ladies are out of touch and f*cking with the rest of us.”
Here’s the thing, though. First of all, it didn’t say that. And second of all, whenever I read something that I interpret as “coming for me” — I want to check myself instead of going with my natural instinct to get all defensive. Because I think staying curious is really important. And getting defensive is a clue my body/mind gives me to LMK maybe there’s a there there, to at least get curious and ask. When I am able to do this, I feel better.
I really like and respect Kelly and her giant brain and have for a while. And she’s a good person. So I told myself to calm down, reread, grow a pair, and hey, maybe (duh) see if I could learn more by TALKING TO KELLY. Wouldn’t you know it, she doesn’t think I’m a rich, out-of-touch a*hole, and she was happy to chat.
HMS: First of all, I love your process of reading the comment sections. I always find it hard just to keep up with the Substacks that I love so much. How did you start deep diving into these comment sections?
KW: The comments section on Substack was how I first waded into the conversation on the app. Initially, I began my own newsletter but was far more interested in engaging with other writers in the comments section. I was so impressed with the thoughtful newsletters I was reading about style and the fashion industry and I found that most other readers and authors would engage in their comments section. The comments section gave me the confidence to start putting my own thoughts on style, clothes, etc. into a newsletter.
HMS: It is diving into these comments and being in touch with what people are really saying and thinking about that in part led you to your recent post on the way influencers are changing what we accept in terms of prices in fashion world, and the way we spend … Did you imagine they would be such a response to this story?
I could never have imagined that my post on made up economic terms would have been received the way it was… the post was obviously a little cheeky so I thought it could be a fun discussion.
KW: I could never have imagined that my post on made up economic terms would have been received the way it was. I know the conversation about influencing is very nuanced and I also knew that I was painting with a broad brush, but the post was obviously a little cheeky so I thought it could be a fun discussion.
I am grateful to have a reader base on Substack that is generally pretty engaged with my content. My comments section is filled with just the best people on the internet and this post really created space for people to share their frustrations with the influencing ecosystem. I felt like comments were more-or-less constructive with people bringing up points that I hadn’t thought of or personal experiences they have had.
HMS: It’s funny to me how we each take away or react to things that worry us from where WE stand. Like I saw people who work a lot with linking see this as the BIG THING. In my case as one of the older women that 30 somethings on the platform can see making larger purchases, that was the eeek for me. But my reaction is … like – am I causing harm? I am grateful for learning opportunities. Will you talk about some of your observations in terms of the response to your piece?
KW: You really hit the nail on the head! Everyone seemed to read my piece with lenses colored by their life experience. And I wrote it colored by MY experiences too. I have loved “getting to know” my readers through the comments so I think I have a base of readers whose lives look similar to mine; middle-class millennials who love shopping but are interested in engaging with style content (vs. shopping content) in order to make their purchases stretch further. I have been open in previous newsletters about burnout I felt on Instagram and the difficult parts about being in a consumption cycle so, again, I think my readers resonate with those things too.
HMS: I look at things like Julia Louis Dreyfus’s podcast, and I want to build community with people younger than me. But it’s true over time I’ve built up my business. I’m in a partnership where we share finances. I’ve made investments. I’d like to see younger women like you as sisters. What are some ways that we can build community and share ideas without being irrelevant or encouraging a lifestyle that’s beyond our current means?
KW: I have always been drawn to people in different life-stages than me because - to be very frank - I have a difficult relationship with my mother and I’m always looking for mentorship. Now that I’ve gotten that vulnerable, I will say that sharing online life with people in other phases of life is SUPER valuable to me too. The best mentors I’ve had in my life are people who search for the common ground that we have. On Substack, that is a love of fashion, a pursuit of personal style and an interest in learning from each other. In my piece I linked to a TikToker I love who warns that following creators older than you can lead to overspending because it’s easy to try and match their spending without realizing that they have had more time to establish a strong financial foundation.
I think a lot about Gen Z because I read stories about the United States situation with consumer debt and use of after-pay sites like Klarna and, probably because I have young kids, I feel a responsibility to show a path forward where I am transparent about having a budget, shopping second-hand, etc. I make a point to talk about not being able to afford things because that is TOTALLY NORMAL. I’m pretty conservative when it comes to finances, my parents really scared the shit out of me about having credit card debt so I only buy things that I can afford outright. Not everyone feels that way but I do think that transparency around “I got a big bonus and I wanted to reward myself with a purse” is helpful language. It’s human to say “I was shopping emotionally and made too big of a purchase/a regretful purchase/etc.” (As an aside, I saw you do this once RE shopping while a family member was in the hospital, if I recall, and I felt really connected to you because I have totally done that too).
Peeling back the curtain about what brand partnerships look like and how commission is paid out or PR gifts are sent is probably uncomfortable to share because people don’t want to seem unreachable but it’s adding color to their financial picture, which is helpful while people navigate their own finances.
HMS: I feel this also when I talk about the fact that I’ve stopped shopping fast fashion, but I know that as in many things it’s easy for me to say, that quitting fashion is not an easy thing when your resources are very specific and I want to acknowledge that. I guess when I’m asking is, how can we help you? What are some of the things you would like to see older and more resourced folks who want to be here and add value doing?
KW: I have really WANTED to stop shopping fast fashion and I have made it an intention at several moments in recent years. BUT, in full honesty, I also want to get to participate in trends and I can often only do that by purchasing the version that Zara produces. There are several writers on Substack who do a great job of linking to fast fashion brands. However, because this gets ethically sticky, the other side of the coin that I appreciate is people who post second-hand options, talk about renting clothes, or those writers who are participating in Tiffany Darke’s shopping challenge who are very open about only buying a smaller number of pieces throughout the year.
HMS: To what extent do you think that sourcing items secondhand addresses the issue? I think The RealReal is totally broken, but it’s brokenness sometimes leads to enhanced ability to access these items. Incredible items that often inspired what’s so hot right now.
KW: I am always inspired by the numerous second-hand shopping newsletters that exist on Substack and I think that the increasingly popularity in second-hand shopping *could* be correlated to savvy followers wanting to buy nice pieces without having the budget to do so retail. The answers for what a shopper is supposed to do when they want high-end brands remain few right now so I think we do our best to speak out about the option that feels best to us. Don’t like promoting fast fashion; promote second-hand. Don’t like promoting TheRealReal; offer more affordable options. Etc.
HMS: How does authenticity play into the things you’re observing, across all kinds of influencers? For example, if people are wearing items from The Row, but detailing how they got them and fit them in with their budget, does that help?
KW: The single most helpful tip for influencers across the board would be to know their audience. If you built your audience sharing links to fast fashion then remember that their budget may still support mostly 2 figure purchases. Evolving into a person who is willing to spend more on clothes is absolutely allowed as it has for me as I’ve aged. But I’ll use an anecdote here to explain. I saw a shirt recently that was $100 and I was about to purchase it when I remembered that there was a time in my life where a $100 t-shirt was WAY outside my budget. I asked myself “what would young Kelly have done?” and I image searched my $100 shirt and found something *similar* for $25. I told a friend, I hope I never grow out of that habit. Plot twist, I didn’t buy either shirt, but the habit of thinking frugally about money is ingrained in me. So if you are about to talk about a coat that a previous version of you would have scoffed at, maybe there is a way to humbly acknowledge that.
HMS: You know another thing I think is that it would be nice for 50 something influencers to help younger women make money and build generational wealth. I think we can do small things like using our platforms to advance the newsletters of the women who are on the rise. Do you agree? Can you think of anything else that would be helpful in this regard?
KW: Rachel Solomon was my fairy godmother for Substack and that response feels disingenuous because, here I am writing with you, BUT I’ll never forget the support you gave me when my newsletter was quite small. [ed note: Aw! I am too emotional for this today! Also I was only sharing good stuff, as I love to do!] My newsletter numbers are still probably considered small but my growth has inspired me to help other writers too. I write it every chance I get but Substack feels like the purest corner of the internet because of the support of people. The freedom from algorithms means that a person with 10 followers can show up in your Substack feed.
My encouragement for creators of any age would be to share the love when you see content you like. That sounds like it should be very basic advice, but I do think that women fall into a very competitive headspace with each other. However, by sharing other people’s work, we all get to find our best, most engaged audience, which is a full-circle moment in this conversation because you want readers who are engaged with your unique kind of content.
HMS: This competitive headspace thing is infuriating to me. If any feelings of competitiveness bubble up, I have a suggestion, run toward not away from that thing. Own the feelings, own the fears. When I think “shit that is so great I wish I wrote it” or “that is so provocative, it makes me wonder if I could do better” the best thing to do is ask questions, and YES, share it!
I am surprised that in an arena primarily dominated by women, style/fashion blogging/influencing, there doesn’t seem to be much … supportiveness. Am I imagining this? Like why can’t the tone of calling each other in be more kind (as I believe your piece was) and also why can’t we receive it more openly … (like I want to know, and if I am causing pain, I WANT to make adjustments.) I’d love to get your take.
KW: There was a real cloud for me over this newsletter’s reception because I felt that my piece was misconstrued into something that I didn’t intend. All in all, I felt as though I lost my voice in the days that came after publishing and I, still, don’t feel like I can say everything I’d like to in defense.
I have watched writers and creators I really, genuinely admire engaging with writing that misconstrued my thoughts and I worry about what they think of me.
To sound like a broken drum, I wrote this for my audience who I knew would be able to see themselves in it (and the comments I received validated that); however, other audiences read this as an attack. I feel most heart-sick at the way my article was repurposed in other people’s writing to make a point I never intended. I have watched writers and creators I really, genuinely admire engaging with writing that misconstrued my thoughts and I worry about what they think of me. This feels very vulnerable to admit because I wouldn’t change my piece, I stand by it, but my role in the subsequent conversation felt inaccurate.
I think the best way to support one another is to recognize our biases. As an example, I shop fast fashion, but when someone writes about not wanting to; I do my best to read between the lines to understand that ethical manufacturing is important for them and I can support that.
EVEN if I feel specifically targeted or judged, it is usually a sign that it’s hitting a nerve of something that I might need to do some introspection with. Someone not wanting to shop fast fashion might challenge me because I’ve wanted to take that stand but I don’t prioritize it as well.
And as a final step, I can choose not to engage at all if it feels too sensitive because, maybe, I’m not the audience for it.
HMS: Exactly this. I am furiously nodding in agreement.
KW: I was surprised and saddened at the reception of my article by some readers because it was, perhaps, read as an attack on the work of an influencer. I have the utmost respect for content creators because my one newsletter is a major creative undertaking in my life, so working full-time producing content gets nothing but respect from me. The caveat here is that when you build an audience who know you for one thing (let’s say it is sharing links to fast fashion brands) then your audience also deserves transparency when your lifestyle evolves. Most people I talk to would be thrilled if an influencer said “Hey guys, I have always WANTED to buy high-fashion brands and I’m able to now because of a brand deal with Net-a-Porter.”
I have the utmost respect for content creators because my one newsletter is a major creative undertaking in my life, so working full-time producing content gets nothing but respect from me.
Transparency was a word that was mentioned several times in the comments on my pieces ... I’m not suggesting that an influencer has to disclose too much (i.e. “XYZ brand just gave me $1,000 to shop on their site and promote it”) but even marking an item as “gifted” can peel back the curtain a little.
HMS: You also talked about knowing your audience.
KW: Knowing your audience … doing the work to remember (or do the exercise of imagining) a smaller shopping budget. The average salary in the US is $63,000 so there is a level of sensitivity to recognizing that not everyone has the same idea of what a “deal” is. As someone living with a shopping budget, I still enjoy looking at nice brands and even saving my money to buy high-end items so the answer can’t be that I just shouldn’t follow anyone with a higher income than me. I’ll also point out that the second-half of my fake economic lesson was on the fact that there is quality degradation at lower price points. So, again, there is a tight spot that budget shoppers exist within.
Just like I would encourage a creator to know their audience, I encourage audiences to understand content creation. Ultimately everyone gets to decide who they follow and how they engage.
*The TL;DR
Be transparent — Ask whether and how we can honest about our purchases, about any gifts, any partnerships. The audience is smart and interested, and I can’t imagine a newsletter that wouldn’t be better with more of it. (Like look at this from
— we ate it up!)Be decent — In stories, in comments … I have yet to see a point that couldn’t be made as effectively if not more so in a more human, empathetic tone. So many of us here are in some way getting shafted economically, societally … let’s not shaft each other.
Be aware — As a writer, of the audience you’re writing for, and when reading, of your budget, your triggers, this business and how it works.
Be gone — Know when to remove yourself. I’ll say it again. This isn’t the ER. If you’re reading about shopping, style etc., and it makes you feel anything you don’t want to feel, click on outta there. Write your senator. There’s plenty of other stuff to do.
ALSO: no paywall. Important for all, hope you’ll share.
XO,
Rachel
What a safe and comfortable space you provide on this platform, Rachel. I'm infinitely grateful to you for asking the questions and really seeing some of the heart stuff in this whole conversation. I felt seen! I felt understood! And, to be fair, I also totally realized how I want to provide clearer (nonjudgmental) take aways in the future. THANK YOU!
This was a lovely conversation, and a necessary one -- thank you for sharing it with us, Rachel and Kelly!
I feel that the discussion that Kelly so thoughtfully started with her newsletter is a part of a much bigger one, and it has to do with inequality. The fashion industry revolves around the notion of exclusion, from start to finish: from the people who work in the garment industry and make mere pennies, all the way to the people right at the top of the system, who make billions. On the consumer level it ranges from the people who can't afford to buy any clothes to people who can afford to buy whatever they like. On top of that, there are always bodies, genders or skin colors that are or aren't "fashion enough". It's just... a lot, when you think about it. We all need to wear clothes (unless we're nudists) and we're all involved in this massive system that's kind of terrifying. I don't know. I don't really have anything intelligent to say, except that conversations need to happen. Asking questions is always a good first step.