What a safe and comfortable space you provide on this platform, Rachel. I'm infinitely grateful to you for asking the questions and really seeing some of the heart stuff in this whole conversation. I felt seen! I felt understood! And, to be fair, I also totally realized how I want to provide clearer (nonjudgmental) take aways in the future. THANK YOU!
This was a lovely conversation, and a necessary one -- thank you for sharing it with us, Rachel and Kelly!
I feel that the discussion that Kelly so thoughtfully started with her newsletter is a part of a much bigger one, and it has to do with inequality. The fashion industry revolves around the notion of exclusion, from start to finish: from the people who work in the garment industry and make mere pennies, all the way to the people right at the top of the system, who make billions. On the consumer level it ranges from the people who can't afford to buy any clothes to people who can afford to buy whatever they like. On top of that, there are always bodies, genders or skin colors that are or aren't "fashion enough". It's just... a lot, when you think about it. We all need to wear clothes (unless we're nudists) and we're all involved in this massive system that's kind of terrifying. I don't know. I don't really have anything intelligent to say, except that conversations need to happen. Asking questions is always a good first step.
Very thought provoking article from both authors. I am older than both of you and I can categorically say I have been ‘influenced’ to buy items I had no business buying. Too expensive, not practical for my lifestyle etc. This dilemma I sadly do not think will ever go away. I think buyers of fashion need to really get in touch with their REAL lives. That means income, lifestyle etc. For instance I love evening gowns (isn’t that why we watch all the red carpets?) BUT I have no need for anything evening. For a long time I would buy cocktail or evening gowns figuring I would wear it on an occasion. I did wear it but probably only once. It was feeding my ego. One day I got real, and realized I was just being totally impractical. I also am not seduced by expensive items just because influencers are wearing said item. It has to be worth the price tag or I will find a less expensive version. Copying is a good thing. I often say an interior designer can be very creative when there is an unlimited budget. It’s when they are on a limited budget that their true creativity shines. Good to apply that to fashion too.
Ruth! I relate!! Every fall when people trot out the gorgeous long, wool coats I WANT but then I realize how impractical they are for my life (I even live somewhere cold!).
Thank you both for your thoughtfulness and willingness to confront personal discomfort to go into deeper conversation about what Kelly wrote. She's right that most of the comments were coloured by personal experience - including mine - but that's expected, considering how personal the topics of money and style can get, doubly so when they're connected, and the nature of influence. But I absolutely did not see it as an attack on influencing as a line of work or on those of us who can afford some nicer things because we've literally had more income-earning years on this planet (something Kelly acknowledged).
I also think that transparency would help hugely - the lack of it is, from what I hear, something that's actively encouraged by brands (who have been known to ask for posts not to be tagged as ads or for the fact to be de-emphasised) trying to disguise the fact that the influencers they work with are in fact a marketing channel while trying to take advantage of what they appear to be or started out as (a fun person on the internet with interesting taste and genuine opinions and recommendations based on that taste). And with great influence also comes great responsibility, sorry to get all Spider-man but I do think that while no one can exactly cosh anyone over the head to buy expensive clothes/bags/shoes, things like klarna or influencers promoting those things to an audience that initally started off following them for lower-priced pieces or vintage and without disclosing the nature of the brand deals, does contribute hugely to a culture of pressure to spend and it'd be disingenuous to pretend otherwise. I mean, it's literally implied in the term 'influence'. That's why I noted in my comment that the older women whose blogs I read as a young fashion blogger, actually helped me by being open about how they could afford their designer gear (and actively discouraging their younger audience from spending on things that wouldn't work for their lives) even back in the days when we didn't know what an affiliate link was. I'm no influencer but now that I'm in the age group they were in back then (30s), I try to follow their example by being honest about what I paid for my clothes too.
Another thing: some of the reactions that Kelly noted, seem to be triggered by the specific brands mentioned in her post. Frankly, anyone whose...ego? sense of self? is so strongly invested in a brand that isn't, well, theirs, that they treat every vague criticism of the brand as a personal attack and other people making the criticisms as the problem (and I'm not even someone who has an issue with it being expensive), needs to really reflect on why they feel that way. That goes for any brand (Rachel, I remember your post about Tibi and I really admire your approach to tackling it, though you didn't sound remotely as bad as what I described, it's a level of self-awareness we could all do with).
Hi Lily! You really struck on something here that I didn’t even consider; money is considered taboo to talk about because of the MANY ways we approach spending. Spending, saving, credit/debit, etc is all so very touchy and I think my piece was read as a critique to spending (unintended by me).
As an aside, I also agree that there seems to be a parasocial relationship formed with The R*w that is coloring the conversation. Tibi is actually a good comparison because I think loyalty to those brands runs deep. That loyalty is awesome! It just can’t be blind.
This comment might belong on Kelly’s original post… I’m 53 and I have been much more frequently influenced by writers in their 30s than those closer to my age. Rachel is at a different spending level than I am, but even though we’re exactly the same age, I don’t feel the need to match or keep up. Because of the lovely welcoming, accepting, experimental, honest vibe, I come here for inspiration & ideas more than influence (except that mascara for mature women… and if that Margiela bag ever goes on sale….)
But with younger writers I get stuck in this internalized ageism and fear of irrelevance that makes me want to buy. I think the writer who really gets to me & leads me to unwise, emotional purchases does so through promoting indy or near-indy brands. I know I can’t afford the big designers, but MNZ? Leset? Studio Nicolson? (I could go on) And if younger people can drop $700 on a bag… maybe that’s just how it’s supposed to be, and I’m a cheapskate? More internalized ageism, I know, and I can see through it intellectually but it doesn’t make it less real in my brain.
i absolutely love the intergenerational love here! but i also think it’s only one small facet, and perhaps an over simplification. obviously there are many 50+ year olds who do not have much/any disposable income despite working for 30+ years. tiia makes excellent points above about capitalism and this industry in general. also, influencer culture means more of us are being regularly exposed to incredibly high priced items. luxury goods feel somewhat normalized in a way they did not used to. it is ultimately up to us to regulate what we are consuming - both in terms of purchases and internet content. i regularly “clean” my substack subscriptions of those influencers who i feel are hard selling anything. fwiw, i am a paid subscriber to rachel’s substack because i genuinely love her content and vulnerability! 💜
Thank you for this. There is something about the suggestion that "buying fancy things makes my life perfect" that FEELS (to me) more dangerous than showing fancy stuff but also showing real life with its valleys, things that no fancy thing can change. So that really means a lot to me.
Yes, Rachel, this! There's a huge difference in creating perfect aspirational lifestyle content with fancy stuff that I couldn't possibly afford, and creating honest, vulnerable content that teems with life, and yes, sprinkled with things I couldn't afford. Yours is always the latter type of content, and that's why I'm always interested in reading what you write and seeing what you wear. It never bothers me that I couldn't afford to have your wardrobe. It's because you're a person first, and a consumer second.
"there are many 50+ year olds who do not have much/any disposable income despite working for 30+ years." -- I was thinking about this, too. Life gets complicated sometimes, and older age doesn't equal higher income. I make a lot less money now at 46 than I did in my 30s.
exactly! and there are impacts of generational wealth and oppression, especially in the US. i am the same age as you and am very fortunate to have spending money. i tend to use “not having children” as my own excuse but of course it’s so much more nuanced than that and such excuses can feel defensive. i am extremely privileged. i have nowhere near rachel’s spending power but yet love her content. i do always joke that my superpower is not getting jealous of other people’s lives… i suppose i’m lucky that way!!
Thank you for the great chat on this sensitive topic. Growing up, my parents taught me to appreciate the finer things while not overspending. My mom always said it's more fun to shop around, hunt for deals, and create your own style. We love talking fashion, strolling through boutiques, and window shopping.
Lately, though, shopping has lost some of its charm:
- Prices are absurdly high. How can a handbag cost almost double what it did a few years ago?
- Quality has noticeably declined.
- Some brands are so exclusive you need to queue to enter, and then you're immediately asked what you need. Can't I just browse? And I'm not even talking about the infamous "H" here.
Shopping should be enjoyable. How can these extreme price hikes be justified? In my late 20s to early 30s, I could save up or use a year-end bonus to treat myself to something nice, usually a quality purse. But today, looking at the average income for the same age group, they can no longer afford similar items. Even secondhand prices have shot up because of high retail prices and demand.
As for fast fashion, it's a double-edged sword. On one hand, everyone should have access to great style. On the other, buying clothes in bulk and tossing them after a couple of uses is terrible. That said, you can still find good quality in everyday brands. The key is to find quality items and not chase the latest trends.
Yes, it’s so true. The prices have become astronomical and it’s clear that so much of that is not related to quality or, likely, the treatment of workers.
Thank you for this conversation! I love how you’ve approached this with curiosity and a willingness to explore your own reactions and interpretations.
Like others have said, I definitely fall into the trap of desiring and purchasing items I’ve seen on influencers, that aren’t aligned with my budget and lifestyle. I’m more prone to doing this when I’m not feeling good about myself and want to copy/paste someone else’s outfit.
But if I’m honest with myself, what I’m really drawn to is their vibe, or the ease in which they carry themselves, rather than the item of clothing they’re wearing. I’m consciously trying to reframe my relationship with social media to be a source of inspiration rather than a directive to buy particular items. And you and Kelly are a great source of inspiration!
What a safe and comfortable space you provide on this platform, Rachel. I'm infinitely grateful to you for asking the questions and really seeing some of the heart stuff in this whole conversation. I felt seen! I felt understood! And, to be fair, I also totally realized how I want to provide clearer (nonjudgmental) take aways in the future. THANK YOU!
Thank you for making this conversation happen, for advancing kindness, for learning and growing and inspiring us to do the same! I am so grateful.
This was a lovely conversation, and a necessary one -- thank you for sharing it with us, Rachel and Kelly!
I feel that the discussion that Kelly so thoughtfully started with her newsletter is a part of a much bigger one, and it has to do with inequality. The fashion industry revolves around the notion of exclusion, from start to finish: from the people who work in the garment industry and make mere pennies, all the way to the people right at the top of the system, who make billions. On the consumer level it ranges from the people who can't afford to buy any clothes to people who can afford to buy whatever they like. On top of that, there are always bodies, genders or skin colors that are or aren't "fashion enough". It's just... a lot, when you think about it. We all need to wear clothes (unless we're nudists) and we're all involved in this massive system that's kind of terrifying. I don't know. I don't really have anything intelligent to say, except that conversations need to happen. Asking questions is always a good first step.
And a sub topic is over consumption in general…
Very thought provoking article from both authors. I am older than both of you and I can categorically say I have been ‘influenced’ to buy items I had no business buying. Too expensive, not practical for my lifestyle etc. This dilemma I sadly do not think will ever go away. I think buyers of fashion need to really get in touch with their REAL lives. That means income, lifestyle etc. For instance I love evening gowns (isn’t that why we watch all the red carpets?) BUT I have no need for anything evening. For a long time I would buy cocktail or evening gowns figuring I would wear it on an occasion. I did wear it but probably only once. It was feeding my ego. One day I got real, and realized I was just being totally impractical. I also am not seduced by expensive items just because influencers are wearing said item. It has to be worth the price tag or I will find a less expensive version. Copying is a good thing. I often say an interior designer can be very creative when there is an unlimited budget. It’s when they are on a limited budget that their true creativity shines. Good to apply that to fashion too.
So true. Keeping it real — real talk, real life — is key!
Ruth! I relate!! Every fall when people trot out the gorgeous long, wool coats I WANT but then I realize how impractical they are for my life (I even live somewhere cold!).
I feel ya! I want a wool coat too in grey. I however live in a hot climate most of the time. I haven’t bit yet. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
"I love it: It’s when they are on a limited budget that their true creativity shines." This is so true for fashion and everyone in the creative field!
Thank you both for your thoughtfulness and willingness to confront personal discomfort to go into deeper conversation about what Kelly wrote. She's right that most of the comments were coloured by personal experience - including mine - but that's expected, considering how personal the topics of money and style can get, doubly so when they're connected, and the nature of influence. But I absolutely did not see it as an attack on influencing as a line of work or on those of us who can afford some nicer things because we've literally had more income-earning years on this planet (something Kelly acknowledged).
I also think that transparency would help hugely - the lack of it is, from what I hear, something that's actively encouraged by brands (who have been known to ask for posts not to be tagged as ads or for the fact to be de-emphasised) trying to disguise the fact that the influencers they work with are in fact a marketing channel while trying to take advantage of what they appear to be or started out as (a fun person on the internet with interesting taste and genuine opinions and recommendations based on that taste). And with great influence also comes great responsibility, sorry to get all Spider-man but I do think that while no one can exactly cosh anyone over the head to buy expensive clothes/bags/shoes, things like klarna or influencers promoting those things to an audience that initally started off following them for lower-priced pieces or vintage and without disclosing the nature of the brand deals, does contribute hugely to a culture of pressure to spend and it'd be disingenuous to pretend otherwise. I mean, it's literally implied in the term 'influence'. That's why I noted in my comment that the older women whose blogs I read as a young fashion blogger, actually helped me by being open about how they could afford their designer gear (and actively discouraging their younger audience from spending on things that wouldn't work for their lives) even back in the days when we didn't know what an affiliate link was. I'm no influencer but now that I'm in the age group they were in back then (30s), I try to follow their example by being honest about what I paid for my clothes too.
Another thing: some of the reactions that Kelly noted, seem to be triggered by the specific brands mentioned in her post. Frankly, anyone whose...ego? sense of self? is so strongly invested in a brand that isn't, well, theirs, that they treat every vague criticism of the brand as a personal attack and other people making the criticisms as the problem (and I'm not even someone who has an issue with it being expensive), needs to really reflect on why they feel that way. That goes for any brand (Rachel, I remember your post about Tibi and I really admire your approach to tackling it, though you didn't sound remotely as bad as what I described, it's a level of self-awareness we could all do with).
Thank you for this tenderness.
Hi Lily! You really struck on something here that I didn’t even consider; money is considered taboo to talk about because of the MANY ways we approach spending. Spending, saving, credit/debit, etc is all so very touchy and I think my piece was read as a critique to spending (unintended by me).
As an aside, I also agree that there seems to be a parasocial relationship formed with The R*w that is coloring the conversation. Tibi is actually a good comparison because I think loyalty to those brands runs deep. That loyalty is awesome! It just can’t be blind.
This comment might belong on Kelly’s original post… I’m 53 and I have been much more frequently influenced by writers in their 30s than those closer to my age. Rachel is at a different spending level than I am, but even though we’re exactly the same age, I don’t feel the need to match or keep up. Because of the lovely welcoming, accepting, experimental, honest vibe, I come here for inspiration & ideas more than influence (except that mascara for mature women… and if that Margiela bag ever goes on sale….)
But with younger writers I get stuck in this internalized ageism and fear of irrelevance that makes me want to buy. I think the writer who really gets to me & leads me to unwise, emotional purchases does so through promoting indy or near-indy brands. I know I can’t afford the big designers, but MNZ? Leset? Studio Nicolson? (I could go on) And if younger people can drop $700 on a bag… maybe that’s just how it’s supposed to be, and I’m a cheapskate? More internalized ageism, I know, and I can see through it intellectually but it doesn’t make it less real in my brain.
Thank you for this, my friend. And I had not thought about that ageist element and how it intersects.
WE ❤️ KELLY xx
We DOOOOO! 😘
i absolutely love the intergenerational love here! but i also think it’s only one small facet, and perhaps an over simplification. obviously there are many 50+ year olds who do not have much/any disposable income despite working for 30+ years. tiia makes excellent points above about capitalism and this industry in general. also, influencer culture means more of us are being regularly exposed to incredibly high priced items. luxury goods feel somewhat normalized in a way they did not used to. it is ultimately up to us to regulate what we are consuming - both in terms of purchases and internet content. i regularly “clean” my substack subscriptions of those influencers who i feel are hard selling anything. fwiw, i am a paid subscriber to rachel’s substack because i genuinely love her content and vulnerability! 💜
Thank you for this. There is something about the suggestion that "buying fancy things makes my life perfect" that FEELS (to me) more dangerous than showing fancy stuff but also showing real life with its valleys, things that no fancy thing can change. So that really means a lot to me.
Yes, Rachel, this! There's a huge difference in creating perfect aspirational lifestyle content with fancy stuff that I couldn't possibly afford, and creating honest, vulnerable content that teems with life, and yes, sprinkled with things I couldn't afford. Yours is always the latter type of content, and that's why I'm always interested in reading what you write and seeing what you wear. It never bothers me that I couldn't afford to have your wardrobe. It's because you're a person first, and a consumer second.
I love you, Tiia. 💜 🥹
Love you too, Rachel!
"there are many 50+ year olds who do not have much/any disposable income despite working for 30+ years." -- I was thinking about this, too. Life gets complicated sometimes, and older age doesn't equal higher income. I make a lot less money now at 46 than I did in my 30s.
exactly! and there are impacts of generational wealth and oppression, especially in the US. i am the same age as you and am very fortunate to have spending money. i tend to use “not having children” as my own excuse but of course it’s so much more nuanced than that and such excuses can feel defensive. i am extremely privileged. i have nowhere near rachel’s spending power but yet love her content. i do always joke that my superpower is not getting jealous of other people’s lives… i suppose i’m lucky that way!!
Thank you for the great chat on this sensitive topic. Growing up, my parents taught me to appreciate the finer things while not overspending. My mom always said it's more fun to shop around, hunt for deals, and create your own style. We love talking fashion, strolling through boutiques, and window shopping.
Lately, though, shopping has lost some of its charm:
- Prices are absurdly high. How can a handbag cost almost double what it did a few years ago?
- Quality has noticeably declined.
- Some brands are so exclusive you need to queue to enter, and then you're immediately asked what you need. Can't I just browse? And I'm not even talking about the infamous "H" here.
Shopping should be enjoyable. How can these extreme price hikes be justified? In my late 20s to early 30s, I could save up or use a year-end bonus to treat myself to something nice, usually a quality purse. But today, looking at the average income for the same age group, they can no longer afford similar items. Even secondhand prices have shot up because of high retail prices and demand.
As for fast fashion, it's a double-edged sword. On one hand, everyone should have access to great style. On the other, buying clothes in bulk and tossing them after a couple of uses is terrible. That said, you can still find good quality in everyday brands. The key is to find quality items and not chase the latest trends.
Yes, it’s so true. The prices have become astronomical and it’s clear that so much of that is not related to quality or, likely, the treatment of workers.
This was so refreshingly sane and rooted in clarity and kindness. Who doesn’t need that? Thanks for sharing this with us !
I love sane. And kindness. So thank you for that, friend 😘
Maybe we need to establish a fashion/style therapist 😜
I’ve suggested this to Rachel not so long ago 😜 Rachel? 👀
😂 I need another degree for this one
So thrilled y’all chatted ❤️ I like this addition to the conversation
XO. I am thrilled too, dear Sarah.
Thank you for this conversation! I love how you’ve approached this with curiosity and a willingness to explore your own reactions and interpretations.
Like others have said, I definitely fall into the trap of desiring and purchasing items I’ve seen on influencers, that aren’t aligned with my budget and lifestyle. I’m more prone to doing this when I’m not feeling good about myself and want to copy/paste someone else’s outfit.
But if I’m honest with myself, what I’m really drawn to is their vibe, or the ease in which they carry themselves, rather than the item of clothing they’re wearing. I’m consciously trying to reframe my relationship with social media to be a source of inspiration rather than a directive to buy particular items. And you and Kelly are a great source of inspiration!